ChrisWrestling's blog
Wrestling is Never Safe
Sometimes when I am looking at interest group posts or visit the chat rooms I run into someone saying something is safer, when it's not, or is safe. That's very much so what this post is about, this idea that a submission can be safe, by definition they aren't. That's not to mention the bazillion profiles which say "safe only" in regards to actual matches. I'm going to set aside scripted matches for this post which have their own risks but the mechanisms of injury are different, especially if you are doing pro with big flashy moves. Likewise, there is a difference between wrestling and rassling. Sorry, but what most people do on here is more rassling than wrestling. This is not a judgement but for the purpose of this post tossing each other around, doing school boy pins, and performing completely ineffective armbars is not wrestling. Wrestling is a sport where your movements force someone else into something they don't want such as a pin or submission.
The very act of effectively controlling someone into a position creates risk. If they are actually resisting, that resistance creates risk for both people involved. I'm not saying don't defend, but the very things that make for real wrestling are what creates the risk. Oftentimes my advice to new people is to slow your roll, especially if your opponent is being really aggressive because oftentimes the more aggressive you get the greater the risk of injury and if you meet someone else's high spazzy aggression it becomes a recipe for injury. When you slow down and focus on breathing when someone else is going bonkers, it allows you to see the match for what it really is, oftentimes directionless muscling of everything. When you slow down you realize that the aggressive guy isn't minding his base, he doesn't have good pressure or connection, he has created the perfect storm for a reversal and if you understand those principles you can often achieve and maintain control.
So many guys on here brag about how people apply submissions but they never tap... that mean's they weren't applying submissions, they were applying something that looked like submissions. Submissions are designed to incapacitate, subdue, or injure, otherwise they aren't really submissions. Oftentimes when I teach people how to do an armbar I will start them off by finishing it with just their fingertips. This stops them from tugging on the arm or applying a reckless amount of force. Once they understand how it's finished I will teach them how to make it almost inescapable. Here's the thing, you can't wait out a real submission, if it's done right and you don't tap you get injured, often quite severely. Your bravado cannot resist a real submission.
That is not to say poorly applied submissions aren't dangerous. Proper application controls your opponent so they don't have a defense so you can take your time to finish the submission. Bad applications offer little control and when people are struggling to control the submission they do erratic things that lead to injuries. The person they are trying to submit will do erratic things that lead to injuries.
In 10 years doing BJJ I had a knee injury, a shoulder injury and a broken nose. I dislocated someone's shoulder once. This is actually a really good track record for the amount of time I spent on the mats not just in BJJ and tournaments but with people on here too. Wrestling is a combat sport, injuries are inevitable but we do what we can to minimize them.
I have written extensively on the risks of chokes. Joint locks are obvious. Compression holds like bicep slicers and calf slicers can dislocate joints or break bones. Bodyscissors and bearhugs can break ribs, damage organs, rupture major blood lines, induce cardiac arrest, cause hernias etc. Takedowns are notoriously dangerous, sweeps can cause injuries, there is no element of wrestling that is ever without risk.
Look, I'm not trying to convince you to not wrestle, I love wrestling, very few things make me as happy as rolling does but every time I step on the mats I am accepting the inherent risk of the sport. If you say you are safe, you're not, you're careful. I'm not going to touch on the judgy "sane" line. There are certainly things that people do that carry a higher risk than they think they do and that's ignorance, not insanity. If someone likes getting choked a little too much or likes to choke too much then they should seek counseling from a mental health professional but they are not insane, they're likely addicted. Choking is more addictive than cocaine for people who are really into it but that isn't insanity. Ok, choking people to extremes may be cause for significant alarm and a mental health provider should probably be sought out as this shows a lack of empathy and care for the person you are playing with and a lack of empathy is often a trauma issue which could be treated with EMDR but I digress.
So, what's the harm here? Well, if you are going into a match with the expectation of safety then you are kidding yourself. The person who injures you is probably not a monster that needs to be shunned from the community. If you hurt someone, in my experience, the guilt of that is brutal. This is a combat sport and injuries, even if you are rassling or scripting, are very much so a reality of the game. When someone hurts you, you should take stock of what was actually behind that injury. Was it you? Was it them? Was it the sport? There are real douchbags on here, not going to lie, but for most of us, we do what we can to minimize the risks but they are always there and if you do this enough, you will eventually get injured. That is in the unwritten, unspoken contract of stepping on the mats so accept the risks or take up knitting.
synxiec (95)
4 days agoOkay, fair, but I think crocheting is a bit more my style if we're going that route.
ChrisWrestling (61 )
4 days ago(In reply to this)
You and I both know you're staying on the mats
synxiec (95)
4 days ago(In reply to this)
How very dare? I am a delicate, gentle soul and want to keep people safe.
*clutches pearls dramatically*
Greekprofantasy (34)
4 days agoIf there's body contact there's always the risk of injury. Heck, getting out of bed in the morning has a risk of injury lol - The people I met through the years where always very careful and respectful even when it was semi competitive. Did I got bruises? of course. Accidental headbutts? Sure. Some scratches? yeah... and so on. I strongly believe that none of those where intentional.
MuscChamp (220)
4 days agoYour post is mostly true! In general, there is a degree of risk in everything. Get out of bed? You might faint, or tweak your back. Obviously, the risk in wrestling is greater than "getting up in the morning". However, risk can always be minimized, but like everything in life, never eliminated. If you accept this "middle position", you can still compete as a wrestler and greatly lower your risk of injury. For example, I have eliminated all stand-up matches because starting from standup position causes 80% of all wrestling injuries. You can still compete fiercely, but only while "rolling", not standing. As a 78 year old with 40 years experience and who still wrestles competitively, I am excellent at preventing injury to others and have an excellent record of safety. In addition to adjusting rules to minimize injury risk, I know how far to pull an arm bar, or how far to push a kimura. Since the vast majority of MF matches are not in tournaments, but rather just for competitive fun, I'd rather stop the match if a guy refuses to tap rather than break his arm. In 40 years, I have injured ZERO opponernts .... although I have been injured three times (less careful heavier beginners .... the most dangerous).
WolfPaws (66)
4 days ago(In reply to this)
@chriswrestling should correct me if I'm wrong but I think part of his point *is* the mentality of "I know how far to pull an arm bar." You might understand it better than someone less experienced, but the how far part is largely up to your opponent's anatomy. The closer we get to "I know what I'm doing" the more complacent we tend to become.
So we can only contract to "I will be as careful as I can be, backed by this much experience," but we can never really claim to be "safe." Especially in a sport where the objective is to hurt each other. 😅
PS - and I hope this doesn't need to be said but I am in no way claiming anything about the person I responded to. With 200+ matches I'm certain his experience will vouch for his level of care and attentiveness during a match!
ChrisWrestling (61 )
4 days ago(In reply to this)
To your point about anatomy and arm bars, hyper mobility increases the risk of injury and people who can't get their arms fully straight either have an injury or they've bulked too much. The thing is, someone without training will pull and really crank the hyper extension without results because they aren't controlling the shoulder or upper arm, they're just smashing their balls. Because they have to work so much harder to get a submission they lose control of what they are doing because they have to muscle it. This lack of control increases the risk of injury. With training and experience you know how to control and prevent escape. You move to the end of the lever and you steer the elbow into your hip, pointing the thumb the other way. You find that end range of motion and it doesn't take much to hyper extend the elbow. So when i have one on a spaz I know that once it's straight I can decide if I want to get the tap or let him go because he's doing something to increase the risk of injury. I don't need to prove that I can get the tap. If they are calm enough to register that they've lost I can slowly add pressure and they will tap.
ChrisWrestling (61 )
4 days ago(In reply to this)
I will say that the whole "getting out of bed" comparison is not an argument here. It's like comparing an apple to a banquet as if they are comparable amounts of food. The whole point here is that so many guys expect no risk, they insist to their opponents that even a bruise is unacceptable. Yes, of course we can mitigate risk, of course we can roll lighter but let's not be disingenuous about what sport we are talking about here. As for opponent counts, one can have 200 light erotic matches and not know a thing about actually wrestling. Not saying muscchamp isn't legit, I don't know him, but I've known plenty of guys who get around that I've rolled with and they don't even know how to maintain their base and think a school boy pin is legit.
MuscChamp (220)
4 days agoP.S. People stab themselves frequently while knitting. 😲
KnockoutBoxer13 (1)
4 days agoI get that a lot with “boxers” too. One minute they claim they want some bloodbath to KO, the next they are saying… but you can’t hit me in the face, I don’t want to get hurt.
Well which is it? Guys like that seem to only want a gut punching pillow fight, but it’s not boxing.
Any combat sport has inherent risk, if someone wants zero chance of being hurt then combat sports are not their thing and they should take up knitting instead.
SeattleFight (611)
4 days agoI try to avoid significant size mismatches which have in the past resulted in accidental injury. Of course someone trying to hurt you is always to be avoided as is the reverse. Chris is exactly right that overly exuberant beginners injure and get injured more often than those with more experience.
Dominate38 (14 )
3 days agoI've only had one bad injury while wrestling. I was about 42, staying at a hotel in NYC. I met a guy on Globalfight who was 6'2" and 260#, a competitive award-winning bodybuilder AND a professional opera singer with the Metropolitan Opera. (A singing, wrestling, bodybuilder! Who knew?) I was 170# and a semi-professional singer, so we couldn't wait to meet. Because of the 90# weight difference, we obviously agreed to NOT wrestle competitively, but to just trade holds and have some fun. At one point, we agreed he should put me in a bearhug, and was sort of shaking me and walking around the hotel room. We both heard a CRACK sound, I looked down, and my shoulder was hanging about 3" below where it was supposed to be....dislocated. I took a cab to the emergency room at a Times Square hospital, and it was PACKED. I was in a lot of pain, so I hollered, "I have insurance!" They grabbed me right away, a doctor and a nurse wrapped my torso and arm in two sheets, pulled them like a wishbone, and popped my shoulder back in. I had to wear a sling for the rest of my NYC visit. As SeattleFight said above, I now try to avoid significant size mismatches.... sort of learned my lesson.